The 10th Book: Reason and Un-Reason
drunkentune
I. Prologue
Plato once wrote a text called The Republic, and it is commonly used today as an introductory text to political thought. It’s a heavy analogue, where a man says to Socrates, ‘What do you think of this?’ and Socrates says, ‘Well, this is what I think…’ and continues for eight or so pages. Then, another man says to Socrates, ‘What do you think of this other thing?’ and Socrates continues. And so it goes.
There are ten chapters, ten books, of this, and it’s very difficult to read. It delves into all manner of politics and social theory, how the heavens are arranged and how humans should be, but the last book, the last piece of ten, is strangely enough, on poetry. Eric Havelock’s amazing Preface to Plato makes clear that since this stands so far out from the rest of the book, that this chapter made people so uncomfortable, that for hundreds of years, a small piece was usually inserted in the margins of the chapter, going along the lines of, ‘It is unclear that this is part of The Republic’. In fact, some printers were convinced that this was not the work of Plato, and did not publish this last chapter, this 10th book.
What Plato said was that in the ideal society, far more nuanced than a mere utopia, there would be no poetry. This was not a totalitarian demand for the elimination of art; far from it. A far more plausible interpretation of what Plato meant is a matter of Homer and his antecedents. In Plato’s analogue of The Republic, in this last chapter, what Plato asks us to think of a society heavily indebted to the poet/leader. Has there ever been a moment in time where a John Wayne was a poet?
There has been, and everyone knows who he is. His name is five letters long. It’s easy.
His name was David. His work was the Psalms, and he held sway over the first military empire of the Israelites.
In what sense can we imagine the poet and the poet’s poetry as central part of the community? This, and I kid you not, was central to Greek society. Plato saw in Homer’s poetry something very wrong, not the poetry itself, but its cultural implications. How can poetry inform people on what is right and wrong?
II. Parados
King Solomon is remembered as being wise. I know I can easily think of situations in my life where I’ve used things on par with King Solomon’s reasoning. In fact, in my family, it grew to such a common occurrence that all one would have to do is call out Solomon! and we’d understand the situation. Keep this in mind.
In Greece, there was a certain judicial practice. You’d appear before the local magistrate and say, ‘My neighbor is a jerk, and he did this.’
Your neighbor would stand up, and in response, say, ‘My neighbor is a jerk, so don’t trust him.’ The ruler would then respond to this with a passage from Homer. He’d point out a literary parallel, or a passage that somehow related to the situation.
’Ah, I am Ajax; my neighbor is Achilles. We all know who was in the right in that situation.’
The decision was not rendered on statutes, but on practices resting on Homeric justice. Thus, a good leader or ruler was a good singer, a good poet. The Greek John Wayne was then seen as one who would listen well, think clearly, and resolve the situation through poetry.
Plato thought that this was wrong. The reasoning behind this – something just wasn’t right. Something didn’t sit with him on this. In the Odyssey, there is an early passage where Odysseus must chose between going off to war and staying to protect his family. He has both an obligation to fight and to stay. He reasoned out his loyalties, weighed his obligations between the small social group and the large society. Odysseus was correct: leaving his family and his community was a poor choice. But so was staying. He did it, for in this conflict, there were no good choices.
But Plato disagreed, not that Odysseus should have stayed home, but that there was an entire alternative notion: the way he arrived there was that Plato realized without poetry, there is only triangles. The alternative to geometry is poetry; for poetry it is geometry.
The options we have to our understanding are actually two: (1) poetry, or (2) geometry.

III. Kabuki
There is the fight between the good itself and the good act. Perhaps I should make this clearer. I see a man help another man, and I tell you to emulate this man. What this man has done is a good act, but it is not good itself. Does this make sense?
There is a lovely message in the New Testament that I find (and many others too) that to be good is to follow Christ. This is the same model as presented to the ancient Greeks. If you were to choose something to follow, you’d follow Christ. But there’s no reason to come to the conclusion that following the works of one man, emulating him, is good in itself. All efforts to solve what is good by good acts is by analogy, and analogy is inherently faulty. What we need is a true triangle. We must see with clarity what sits inside our heads when we see an equilateral triangle. Poetry is looking with the body’s eye, not the ideas that informed the decision. We can learn to reason about things as we do by geometry. The way we do this? We do so by closing our eyes.
The authority of Homer then fails us, for Homeric justice was about good and just acts, not on the good and the just. What are the elements of justice and good? Plato gave postulates, just as in geometry, hints at parameters of the good and the just. Plato seeks the banning of the authority of Homeric justice in society: the emotional, not appeals to reason, for the way the mind responds to poetry, to oratory is different than real debate. Poetry is mimesis, mimicry, joining yourself with another. It is taking your critical thinking, momentarily banning it, and seeing as another would. Poetry is listening with both sympathy and empathy, to such a point where minds join. Reason is not poetry. It is the antithesis; it is about the separation of minds; geometry, reason. What happens when we listen to poetry is we become the poet. It is a willful, uncritical engagement with material, and this is wrong simply because with poetry you cannot critique, cannot observe, because you are part of the story.
IV.
Now there is a division between experience, that of emotion, those of Homeric justice or the ability to see through experience, to see past experience. And how do we systematically see through immediate experience?
I think science is the answer.
In conversation, at times I feel frustrated. I’m denoting far too much, it seems. We all do. We’ve all had to sit someone down at one point in our lives and tell them: Don’t listen to what I’m saying, but listen to what I am talking about; don’t take me literally. This reality is beneath superficial experience. This meaning is implicit. What we have without science is the surface; beyond the surface, beyond poetry, is geometry; science. On the surface, the triangle is only the triangle, but below the representation of the triangle, the image we indicate, is an abstract concept. These conclusions are clear: don’t be distracted by the world of experience. Plato said, ‘If you want to understand the heavens, look at your feet.’ Now, this isn’t the popular view of what he said, but the real view. Plato was talking about triangles, and how we observe triangles. Plato thought that the building blocks of life were triangles. Triangles were the universe – but not just triangles, the abstract concept below the surface of triangles. On the first episode of Car Sagan’s TV show Cosmos: A Personal Voyage, Sagan said that with this quotation Plato held back science by a thousand years. This is perhaps the most stupid statement made by a very smart man that I respect. Plato wasn’t saying anything like that. Plato was talking about triangles, but not just triangles; about geometry, but not just about geometry; about mathematics, but not just about mathematics; about science.

V.
There is a minor quotation, a translation of Plato’s work, where in the middle of a monologue, Socrates says, ‘I forbid you to say this.’
When you read the sentence, you’re taken aback. It’s as if this whole time a reality TV crew is watching you. What kind of sense is this? I forbid you to say this.
?
…
Ah, but we have graphic ways of signaling things we say. The Greeks did not, as we currently do. If you said the sentence today, it would go something like:
Or, I forbid you to use the word ‘this.’ And it falls into place, and I end my short bit of philosophizing, on why the Bible, or any text for that matter, gives us nothing but temptation to imitate, to fall back to the village. Why the ideal society would not have poetry, or justice derived from imitation of good acts. We should never talk about this triangle, but a triangle, the concept of a triangle. Plato was a true scientist’s philosopher, the antecedent to Popper. We’re looking for abstractions, for general descriptions that agree with all the data, but make future conjectures that work. We’re looking for the triangles, but not the superficial triangles — the real triangles we see after we close our eyes.
What we’re looking for is science.
Posted in epistemology, ethics, naturalism, philosophical issues |



March 26th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
First, if you are right in interpreting Plato in this way, then Book 10 is teleological at root since it is clearly speaking of how things ought to be not how they are. I would then ask, if we should seek to understand reality in terms of triangles, what then does this say about our purpose and is such a purpose acceptable?
Second, I disagree with the either-or implied here. When I speak of a “wider rationality”, I am concerned with one that can opperate in both triangles and poems. Sure, Plato is right that we can escape the village as you call it by removing poetry, but there we leave our human origins. To limit ourselves to triangles only throws us into the machine. Should Plato have such contempt for the world that sired him? Is it not this Greece that he distains that gave him birth and made him a person who could question it thus? Sure, he should seek to improve it, and in so doing increase their scope to talk also in terms of triangles, but his reaction is unreal and inhuman to suppose the silencing of the song of our psychology is the same as leashing our animal passions or exterminating them. In my opinion neither serve, so I look for a means to live in the “both-and” where one may be both a poet and a physicist, or at the very least, may listen to both as he walks along the way.
Third, I would point out that Plato’s geometry is outdated. It is fine when thinking in terms of two demensions, but the two-demensional world is only a mental construct. There are many more demensions to what is real and many more primary shapes that symbolize it, not to mention how much of real logic is curves and even beyond three-demensions.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
I.
I actually find much fault with Plato’s argument, which I touched briefly on in The Outer Banks: A Follow-up. It’s clear, though, that either view takes into consideration a necessary distance between the subject and the observer.
II.
In this post I’m not as concerned with rationality as I am with justice and reason. You can find rational ways to engage poetry as a way to exact a legal system, but it’s not justice, only emulation of just acts; it’s not reason, but emotion. ‘Plato seeks the banning of the authority of Homeric justice in society: the emotional, not appeals to reason… Poetry is mimesis, mimicry, joining yourself with another. … Reason is not poetry. It is the antithesis; it is about the separation of minds… with poetry you cannot critique, cannot observe, because you are part of the story. (emphasis mine)’
March 26th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
This clarification helps. But I guess this raises the issue, at what point could a person think themselves not part of the story? That, I think, is a point currently being made in many circles — that it is impossible to be a neutral observer. Even Einstein presents a world where there is no observer is in a non-relative position of of non-motion.
I was listening to a program about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa this Saturday. One of the commission members was asked how their participation affected their view of “truth” and “justice”. They were saying that outside of relationship, outside of contact that really allows victim and perparator to see each other as human, concepts of “truth” and “justice” are very dangerous things. On the societal or national level they could be deadly. I think history could marshal much in support of this view. It has become my opinion that law and statute is only a poor substitute for relationship, and that necessitates entering into many human stories. So even in this, I disagree with Plato’s ideal.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
I personally think it’s pretty distanced when you are empathetic only to the point of understanding the other’s intended message.
I certainly agree. We all have our cultural baggage we carry, but a distance, a critical attitude towards things, is different than neutrality.
Even so, this sounds like an argument I hear whenever I mention the non-violent lives of Jains: someone always likes to be snide, as if they’ve found a fault with the Jains. ‘Hah!’ they say, ‘Even though they try not to cause pain, what if they crushed an ant by accident? What then? Huh? What then?’
That’s not the point. The point is that the Jains are human, just like us. They make mistakes, but they’re trying, and are on the right path. At least, by distancing ourselves, by limiting poetry as basis for any system of values, we’re trying.
Lastly, I see one of the deep-rooted ideas of democracy is that there is no difference between prince or pauper — or more importantly, between your family and some guy living in a trailer in Montana. There’s no arbitrary attachment to blood-kin, or emotional connection to our loved ones, even though we all feel it, because that’s not equality. This is what I call loyalty, forming an in-group of blood-relations and an out-group of the other: I see this as a pack-animal mentality. Equality is, even though I might not care about the guy living in a trailer in Montana, I know he has a family too, and deserves the same freedom as I do, as we all do.
March 28th, 2007 at 1:32 am
I think it admirable that both you and Plato are really trying along with the Jains. As we both know, there are many who are not. I would be appauled at a justice system based on Homer as code. However, I see little wrong if Homer formed a matrix of analogy encoding a tremendous amounts of situational data like saying “Roe vs. Wade” in a modern court. This just seems to make sense as part of human communication. Speach is geometrical and mathematical, but at a deep level below our concious thought. It seems one strength of our brains is a systemic ability to encode and decode, although this does lead to data loss and corruption in some cases. I would think what you and Plato are talking about is on the order of rewiring the human brain.
It would seem, according to my understanding of our current democracy, that our present values are derived primarily from being students of history, which while not poetry, is story and often subject to great interpretation (like retelling the Civil War as if it was about slavery not economics). After all, the idea of “social contract” was birthed from the story of feudalism. I would agree with sociologists who say the societies tend to first generalize or restate the “old story”, then begin to tell a new story, then attempt to make it a reality. This seems to be a rather hard-wired process up to this point.
How would you suggest we develop value systems without story or subjectivity, since this is a “new thing” for humans, at least in the majority?
March 28th, 2007 at 10:32 am
If story is not an option, and since we cannot possibly leave behind tradition or culture (some traditions are good while others are bad), I think we should form value systems that depend on traditions (culture) we value, such as cultures that value reason, logic, debate open to all voices, scientific empiricism, and honesty. I think we should follow traditions that value love over hate.
Furthermore, we should shun traditions such as favorism based on blood-relations (loyalty), monarchy or theocracy (both variations of rule by power).